Pink Crown type x Sugar Beth

[jayb]

I'm growing out a few F1's of Pink Crown type x Sugar Beth they are growing in a little clump together. I made this cross a few years ago and only now I'm growing them.

Pink Crown type - a segregating plant from Salmon Flower x Alderman/DBofG. I've no notes to say what type crown, hopefully, a full double type.
Sugar Beth which to remind myself was a pink flowered, pink podded (snap- I think) a selection made from Elisabeth x Sugar Magnolia at F2.

As both parents are recessive pink flowering, I was kind of expecting a pink flowered F1, even though I'm using two segregating parents - pink flowers are what I thought would follow?

I'd love to know what I am missing and have got wrong, why are they blooming the wild type?

[triffid]

The only situation I can conceive that makes sense is that while both Salmon Flowered and Sugar Beth have pink flowers, the genes responsible for their pink colour are different. I believe Elisabeth was confirmed bb. No idea about Salmon Flowered, do you know?

[jayb]

No idea about Salmon Flowered, do you know?

I've assumed it is b but if Elisabeth and 'Mrs Lei' are b, I now think Salmon Flowered isn't the same whether by modifier or different gene.

b is described as "Deep rose pink flowers. Controls 5-hydroxylation of the B-ring of anthocyanins in flowers, axils and pods." http://data.jic.ac.uk/pgene/Default.asp?ID=73
Which to me sums up Salmon flowered colour more than say Elisabeth which we know to be a delightful paler pink.

Can an inherited modifier alter the colour in this way so you think?

[triffid]

I now think I'm barking up the wrong tree in my previous comment. Wouldn't the pollen and egg cells of the F1 generation have segregated genes, and that's how we end up with diverse F2? Because if they were uniform, then the F2 would be identical to F1. So when you did the cross the gametes weren't genetically uniform, the recessive genes are still being reshuffled, and you ended up with the wild phenotype this generation - because it wasn't really a pink x pink cross based on the sex cells.

[Silverleaf]

I can confirm that Elisabeth is bb because I did a test cross with a b seedbank accession, and the F1 had pink flowers.

And I was thinking the same as triffid, maybe Salmon Flowered is pink because of a different gene?

[jayb]

I think I'm finding the colours thrown from a Salmon Flowered cross have a larger range than those from both Elisabeth and 'Mrs Lei'. But confusingly and I'd have to check back to confirm. but I'm pretty sure I had F1 pinks from a Salmon Flowered x either Elisabeth or 'Mrs Lei' cross.

In my mind, I think Salmon Flowered is more a b-wild pink or perhaps it is recombining wild purples x pinks shading their true colours and all will become clear in the following grow outs.

[jayb]

Just a thought for this cross I would have used a pink of Crown type and I haven't specified what type pink on the label, there do seem to be a few shades that have come through. Post above

I'm pretty sure I had F1 pinks from a Salmon Flowered x either Elisabeth or 'Mrs Lei' cross.

so perhaps both could be true really?

b-pink f1 from a bxb cross and a wild purple f1 from a (+or-)bxb so to speak, does this make sense or am I making it up to suit?

[Biolumo]

Interesting cross. Interesting F1. I'm a bit confused as I was confident Salmon-Flowered was "b", but it might not.

Are you confident these seeds did indeed cross instead of self-pollinate? I will assume yes.

[jayb]

Yep, pretty sure.
I think we had another similar type question/example in a thread for unexpected colours in grow outs, which may or may not relate to this. I'll try and locate to link it. I believe it was along the lines - using an F2 parent in a cross, even though a recessive trait presents, the genes are still re-giggling which tilts the anticipated results.

[Biolumo]

This may provide some interesting and useful insights on many (but not all) of the available pea phenotype genetics. I'm pretty sure it is slightly outdated. Would need to look at the John Innes Pgene database again to double check known flower phenotypes.

https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/....php?topic=517

http://pw.ihar.edu.pl/wp-content/upl...2019_small.pdf

The Catalogue of Pisum Genes by Wojciech Święcicki

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From this it looks to me like all the pink ones have the b gene. But interestingly enough there do appear to be some modifier genes.

ar b is pale rose pink
ar cr light mauve
b cr is antique rose
b beg - begonia red
b rub - rose red

scratch that. After copying and pasting the above info it looks like ar cr could be a light pink without the b gene? Interesting if true.

If at all possible, please redo your initial cross to confirm. If they are indeed different I would love to get some seed samples of the other type. The only one I still have is some Salmon-Flowered crosses in my collection. Would be interesting if it was not the b gene this whole time. Unless of course you have them swapped. In either case, very interesting discussion. Peas will probably interest me for a whole lifetime. You may find this post by me to be interesting:

https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/...hp?topic=428.0

[Galina]

Yes peas are very interesting.

[Galina]

I would not call mauve a light pink, more like a light purple.

[Biolumo]

Cv intensifier (Dominant)
beg - intensifier of b? (recessive)
rub - modifier of b? (recessive)

Another accession rumored to be fasciated and have pink flowers. Same as Salmon-Flowered??

Rosakrone

NGB 103071

PI 477371

https://nordic-baltic-genebanks.org/...ail.aspx?id=72

https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlo...ail?id=1372307