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Telephone x Unity

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  • #16
    I switched to using a lark's head knot this year and that's made things easier.

    Absolutely, I think plants need sun to make sugar. And pea flavour is a complicated thing with so many variables, so there isn't just sugar content to take into consideration. With Telephone tasting so good I think there's a good chance that most of them will taste decent though!

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    • #17
      The F3 generation grown in 2017:

      Probably time to transfer the news about this pea cross here, rather than in the general section. First I made a mistake (but it's all good!). I sowed 4 peas and eventually planted them in a row together, then later realised that I had not made notes of their different seed characteristics and sowed again. So I actually have 7 plants. not just the 4 I mentioned yesterday.

      The group of 4 have 2 without axil colour, then the early flowering one and another that is nearly flowering with axil colouring. The jury is out whether the plant that flowered first has doubles or singles, but the second plant with axil colour definitely has doubles in the early buds. These buds will open in a few days.

      Then the second sown batch of 3. I labelled them 'lighter colour seed, black hilum', 'lighter colour seed without black hilum' and 'marbled seed with black hilum'. These differ a little in height from each other, but all are definitely in the tall categorynand all have axil colouring. I know nothing about the genetics of black hilum and was interested that one of them did not have a black hilum. It seems to be a dominant feature. Hypertendrils seem to replicate fairly readily. The first flower is of the rounder shape, not the Unity shape. 2 out of 7 have no axil colour, 4 out of 7 have hypertendrils.

      Your picture of 9.6.16 shows a lighter crimson coloured flower and the flower that opened yesterday is darker today and possibly will darken to the flower in your picture. Will try for a decent photo again - it can be so tricky to get the camera focussed.
      Last edited by Galina; 11-05-2017, 13:41.

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      • #18
        Yes, black hilium is a dominant characteristic, all my F2 seeds had it and most of the F3 did too. I didn't count ratios or anything though. Both A_ and aa genotype show it. http://data.jic.ac.uk/cgi-bin/pgene/default.asp?ID=537

        Hypertendrils? We have hypertendrils? How interesting! I never noticed those, but to be fair I was mostly concerned about flower colour last year and I certainly didn't select for anything else. Cool!

        I need to look at the JIC gene list more closely, but I haven't found which gene is responsible for Unity's weird shape.

        I like how variable the flower colour is, it makes the plant look more interesting with flowers of different ages. Looks lovely whatever shade it is!

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        • Galina
          Galina commented
          Editing a comment
          Thank you for the hilum information. Yes hypertendrils - will take photos next time.

        • Silverleaf
          Silverleaf commented
          Editing a comment
          My plants are growing pretty close together so it's hard to tell at the moment but I think I might have a few hypertendrils too!

      • #19
        Here are slightly better pictures. First one Unity x Telephone and the second one is an F2 of Unity x Mrs Lei. Yes, the flower of the cross with Telephone is darker than yesterday, but still quite different from the crimson flower of the cross with Mrs Lei. And it is not just the prominent green spots at the base of the standard, but the keel of the telephone cross is much lighter colour. I did not spot that the Unity x Mrs Lei had flowers yesterday, maybe I overlooked them.

        I am very puzzled at the pale crimson of the telephone cross.
        Last edited by Galina; 12-05-2017, 08:42.

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        • #20
          Your Telephone x Unity looks well within the normal crimson range to me - some flowers are quite pale and there's a lot of variation even on the same plant. I expect you'll see some dark flowers sooner or later.

          I don't think your Unity x Mrs Lei is crimson at all! It has purple tones rather than red and it's lacking the "coloured in quickly with pencil crayon" effect that crimson usually has. Perhaps it's one of those strange-looking wild types? Unity crosses do tend to show unusual variations on wild type plants.

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          • Silverleaf
            Silverleaf commented
            Editing a comment
            You'll almost certainly get some wild type from that cross anyway...

            Have to admit I find the crimson colour really easy to differentiate from others, but I'm good at that kind of thing anyway.

            What I mean by the crayon effect is how the colour isn't evenly distributed, and yes the white edges are part of that. The pigment is kind of "streaky", like when a child colours in a picture and little bits get missed or only covered lightly while others have a heavy coating of pigment. Compare to Elisabeth which has a very even distribution of colour.

            When Beacon opens you'll see another pattern that I think of as "watercolour", where the pigment shows a smooth gradient from light in the centre of the flower to darker on the edges of the wing petal.

          • Galina
            Galina commented
            Editing a comment
            Well not so far on the Beacon that is flowering, see photo on the Beacon page. But they are actually planted in the shade of the Autumn Olive bushes rather than in the bright daylight of the Telephone x Unity cross. I do find colours trickier to distinguish and must learn to really look and observe. And remember. Shapes are easier to remember, like the long wavy standards of Unity and the hangdog look of the wings. But colours I am struggling to remember.
            Last edited by Galina; 14-05-2017, 09:23.

          • Silverleaf
            Silverleaf commented
            Editing a comment
            It's definitely tricky at times, especially because photos can look so different when taken in different lights (and with different cameras!). Easier in person because your brain can compensate for the light.

            It's usually pretty easy if you've got an other colour that's familiar to you to to compare it to, but sometimes they try very hard to trick you!

        • #21
          As a general observation, the colour seems to be "smoother" and less intense in the ordinary-shaped flowers, and darker but with the "crayon pattern" in the frilled flowers. If my memory of last year is accurate!

          I'll keep an eye out for that this year. I like both flower types so I'm planning to keep both.

          Comment


          • Galina
            Galina commented
            Editing a comment
            Clearly both of the above are the smoother type of flower, not the Unity type frilly flower. And that could be linked to colour expression? Certainly the cross with Telephone has kept its green spots at the base of the standard. Looking forward to seeing flowers on the other plants with antho. They could be quite different.

            Unity itself is not flowering yet, but I have planted a small batch too. Because I like to compare directly and under the same weather and daylight conditions with the originals.

            As A is a master gene that switches off all colour expression other than green, I wonder what the cross could have 'opened up' in Telephone and how that could contribute. I don't think we can class Telephone as a 'blank' canvas and Unity as the only colour contributor. Or have I got this wrong?
            Last edited by Galina; 12-05-2017, 08:46.

          • Silverleaf
            Silverleaf commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't know if they are linked (it's possible) but I'll make a big effort this year to see if those characteristics associate this year. And we can always try crossing a dark frilly flower to a normal one and see what happens.

            No, you're right. There could be anything at all lurking in Telephone's genetics that we just haven't seen because of the epistatic effect of a. And there are probably loads of things that contribute in small ways to colour expression/pattern, both genetic and environmental.

          • Galina
            Galina commented
            Editing a comment
            Still getting this wrong. It is 'a', a recessive gene that has the power to switch colour expression off.

        • #22
          Thank you for those explanations Silverleaf. And you are right on both counts. Today Unity x Telephone looks crimson. Photo attached and you can see a hypertendril from another plant in the front of the photo. Whereas the Mrs Lei cross is now looking like a wild type.

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          • Silverleaf
            Silverleaf commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes, it's looking much darker isn't it?

        • #23
          Still only two plants of Telephone x Unity flowering, but we have lovely cr flowers and doubles.

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          • #24
            Very nice! Great that you have doubles, it does make plants a bit more productive. And as always I just adore that crimson colour.

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            • #25
              Lots of flowers here, mostly wild type as expected but lots of crimson too, and a couple of whites. Good proportion of doubles. This cross is clearly way earlier than anything else I'm growing, which is lovely.

              I should have enough crimson plants this year that I can eat all the peas from purples (and whites, which I culled last year too). Looking forward to trying them, I'm expecting them to be fairly starchy soup type peas.

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              • #26
                I now have 5 plants with crimson, 3 of them I made notes of the original seed type, one without Unity's black hilum spot. If they are all starchy, a backcross to Telephone perhaps? What do you think?

                Comment


                • Galina
                  Galina commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I tried to find on pgenes whether there is a linkage hindrance separating black hilum type starchy peas (linkage group VI) and wrinkle seeded peas, but for some reason I could not find the wrinkle seed gene..

                • Silverleaf
                  Silverleaf commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Wrinkle-seeded is r, linkage group V, so they aren't linked.
                  Last edited by Silverleaf; 12-06-2017, 03:02.

                • Galina
                  Galina commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Many thanks

              • #27
                Just looking at the 3 plants that I logged separately according to the colour.and size of the seed they were grown from. All three were crimson flowered.
                The smaller seeded one was quite uniform with pale seeds and without black hilum. Difficult to say with the pale seeds, but there are none or hardly any plain green seeds (which are likely to flower white).
                The plant with Unity type seeds (large, black hilum) has yielded all types of seeds, larger and smaller Unity type seeds with black hilum, larger and smaller of the paler seeds without black hilum. And several seeds (in the largest pods) which are very pale and could indicate no extra colour. I suspect they might flower white. This plant had the best filled pods.
                The last one had small pods only, typically filled with 2-3 very large, all black hilum seeds, most of these are quite wrinkled.
                There is still a lot of variation in this F3 generation. Unfortunately none had the huge well-filled Telephone pods. The best pods were on the plants that had white flowers, which were all eaten. I was surprised to see so much difference in different pods on the same plant. But these were only F3s and a lot of gene shuffling is still going on there.

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                • #28
                  Haven't harvested mine yet - despite being one of the first to flower, the pods are not really starting to dry yet even though some other projects that flowered around the same time are now a mass of straw.

                  I had enough crimson plants that I'm only going to save seeds from them, the purples and whites will be thrown in with my "rejects" seeds - mostly whites from coloured projects, or shelling peas from edible-podded projects. Rejects will be dried and used in soups, etc over the winter, and sown for pea shoots for the rabbits.

                  Anyway I did notice a good amount of variation in the Tel x Un seeds last year, with different seed coat colours, presence or absence of the "maple pea" Unity pattern, and I think some had violet spots too. Will be interesting to see this year's seeds.

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                  • #29
                    My F4 seeds have a lot of variety. Base colours are ordinary green, tan, and a dull “army green” (light and dark). Most have the maple pattern in a warm mid brown, some in darker chocolatey brown, some don’t have the pattern at all. Most have black hilia, some don’t. There’s all kinds of combinations!

                    As I planned I’ve only saved seeds from crimson plants so hopefully I’ll have a predominantly-crimson population of F4s. There will be a few whites to rogue out, but I’m not expecting any more wild types now.

                    I’ll be taste testing this year to see if there are any sweet ones, maybe I’ll also backcross to Telephone to try for a crimson-flowered pea for fresh eating.

                    Comment


                    • Galina
                      Galina commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Did you get large Telephone type pods with crimson flowers? I didn't. The largest podded ones were white flowered. Roll on next year.

                    • Silverleaf
                      Silverleaf commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Nothing as large as Telephone, but I think I had some with 5 seeds which is certainly an improvement over Unity. I’ll pay more attention next year!

                  • #30
                    F4 in 2018. This plant is barely out of its bottle and we have one open flower and 2 buds above it. Singles, but very early and the first flower is very low down on the plant.

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