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  • Jaune de Madras

    I'm growing an Adam Alexander pea variety, Jaune de Madras. Description he hives on Twitter goes: "One of my favourite mange-tout. Jaune de Madras, a 19th century French heritage with alleged Indian roots, held by Utrecht seed bank is synonymous with later bred American heritage Golden Sweet now available commercially. Delicious"

    I find it difficult to understand what means by 'synonymous'. If Golden Sweet was bred later, can they be the same pea?

    But I'm also interested in whether the flowers are the same. A distinguishing characteristic of Jaune de Madras flowers are that they never seem to open completely. I have grown Golden Sweet but wasn't very observant the time. I'm wondering whether GS has the same flower habit of apparently not opening fully. The photo is as open as the flower of J de M ever gets.


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  • #2
    Breeding can be selection too, does not have to be making a new variety with crossing. Second observation, we have just recently talked about what Carol Deppe thinks about Golden Sweet and this does not match with 'delicious'. Third comment, I have seen fully open flowers on Golden Sweet occasionally. Most are nodding and don't open fully.

    Comment


    • Jang
      Jang commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes, interesting re 'delicious'. I look forward to sampling and reflecting on deliciousness or otherwise.

      Thanks for the feedback on flower habit. It's early days for J de M so will see what happens over the next week or so.

      And I suppose Adam Alexander has retained a separate name for his yellow mangetout because the selection followed a different route - which I guess is good practice. DNA testing of the two varieties would be interesting.

    • Galina
      Galina commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes this is what I would do too. Mine came to me as Goldensweet bought from the long defunct seed company Future Foods, so this is what I call it and Goldensweet 2 for the one from the seed circle a few years ago. I can see small differences and only the first batch has the upright flowers occasionally.

    • triffid
      triffid commented
      Editing a comment
      My line of Golden Sweet, originally from Real Seeds, has the nodding, closed flowers. I don't find them particularly delicious, edible when very young and flat, otherwise they taste bitter (to my buds at least).

  • #3
    Is it a characteristic of yellow podded peas that they have pendulous flowers - some genetic connection? Or does it simply establish that these two have common ancestry, perhaps?

    I believe Opal Creek has upright white flowers but of course a different kind of pod too.

    Comment


    • Jang
      Jang commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for spelling out clearly. I did kind of know better but was writing rather loosely.

      Another musing: I gather that white flowers tend to be associated with greater sweetness in shelled peas. I haven’t yet tasted Opal Creek but I assume it’s fairly sweet. Is it your experience with snap peas that white flowered varieties are sweeter than coloured flower ones? I’m assuming - and hoping - that this isn’t always or generally so.

    • triffid
      triffid commented
      Editing a comment
      Sorry if overexplaining! I love discussing/pondering pea genes unfortunately. I haven't tasted any coloured flower snaps, that I remember, but I have noticed a difference in mangetout and shelling peas. The seeds of purple flowered varieties tend to have more or less antho and tannin in them, which can add a bitter note. It appears to be linked to 'A' but I haven't a clue regarding the intricacies of sweetness variation.
      I'd suppose that whether the peas are round or wrinkled at maturity would have more of an indicative role on sweetness than the presence of 'A'. Maturity of pod obviously is significant, but also time of day, according to Deppe.

    • Jang
      Jang commented
      Editing a comment
      You certainly didn't over-explain. I was more attempting to excuse my carelessness, but also I do seem to need to keep going backwards and forwards over pea genes and genes in general.
      Do carry on discussing/explaining and maybe one bright day some of the thinking will become second nature to my somewhat sluggish grey cells.

  • #4
    You quoted: Rebsie Fairholm says that Kapular states that the flowers of Opal Creek are purple whereas they're apparently white. Interesting memory lapse.

    Actually I know how this happens, as I had exactly the same. My Charlie's Goldsnap have had purple flowers every time I grew them, until one year I got two white plants. I kept the seeds separate, thinking 'did I make a mistake?' until I started thinking more clearly and came to the conclusion that the recessive white from the white flowering parent of the variety (Amish Snap) had finally emerged through, several generations later. Once white flowering, the recessive trait is fixed, whereas any of my purple flowering majority CGSn's could still potentially change to white flowering in the next few years. It will need more generations to be sure that the purple is a fixed trait and can no longer show up recessive white flowers. The chance of this halves with every new generation. But ChGSn is fairly recently bred, so not yet guaranteed stable with respect to purple flower colour. Apart from the white flowering ones which now are.
    Last edited by Galina; 21-05-2020, 06:37.

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    • #5
      I read somewhere on the infinite internet the other day that Golden Sweet was discovered in the USDA germplasm collection and named by Robert Lobitz, the late bean breeder. I've only ever seen this claimed once, and don't know if it is verifiable. Any of you know more on the origins?

      Comment


      • triffid
        triffid commented
        Editing a comment
        Spoke too soon - did a little more digging and found this Seed Savers Exchange source https://www.theeasygarden.com/attach...icle-jpg.7765/

      • Galina
        Galina commented
        Editing a comment
        Ahh, now of course you need to ask where Jaune de Madras comes from. Is that the name in the seed bank? Did Lobitz anglicise a French name?
        Last edited by Galina; 22-05-2020, 20:38.

      • Jang
        Jang commented
        Editing a comment
        Very interesting and yes, I was wondering whether it’s possible to find out where the original USDA germplasm accession came from. Perhaps unlikely as so long ago.

        Adam Alexander writes that Jaune de Madras was acquired from the Utrecht seedbank, but before that...?

        A Dutch seed company offers Golden Sweet/Golden India (https://www.vreeken.nl/109900-gouden...t-golden-india)
        and in their description say, according to Google Translate, “This particular, ancient breed originates from Asia..... In France, the old breed 'Jaune de Madras' exists, which probably also came from Asia”.
        Last edited by Jang; 23-05-2020, 04:54.
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