Oregon Giant Pea

[triffid]

Carol Deppe waxes lyrical about this variety and her frank enthusiasm has me itching to try it out and likely use it in some breeding lines.
Problem is I can't seem to source it in the UK even though it is on the National List (and has an AGM?).
So if anyone has it and can bung me a pinch of seeds I'd be most grateful. Goes without saying I'd swap for them or send remuneration

[Jang]

I'm sorry I haven't grown this.

I had a look online too as it does seem very surprising that it should be so freely available in US and Australia, and not at all here.

Interestingly Dobies are offering a variety they call Oregon Sugar Pod from September 2020. I just wonder whether it could be the same pea with a slight name change for some reason. No good for this growing season though anyway.
Good luck sourcing some seed

[Jang]

RHS gives one supplier of Oregon Giant Pea - Kings seeds. Kings Seeds actually have the same variety as Dobies - Oregon Sugar Pod. This just adds to the confusion, for me anyway, about nomenclature.

[Galina]

Oregon Giant and Oregon Sugar pod are two different varieties. And dumbo me has written 'Oregon' on the seed label and now I no longer know which is which. If with these constraints you are happy to get seeds, I am happy to send you some . One is white flowered the other is purple, so if we could find out which is which, then my labelling faux pas would be sorted. I am not very proud of this, but I am sure it happens to others too. At the time of labelling I did somehow forget there were two Oregon varieties.

[Jang]

Good to have your clarification on the two names.

This site (Terroir Seeds) specifies that Oregon Giant is white flowered:
https://store.underwoodgardens.com/O...uctinfo/V1195/

[Galina]

That is helpful. Thank you.

[triffid]

Funny that they call it 'Oregon Giant Sugar Pod' which seems to be a conflation of both varieties. The seeds in their pic look consistent with OSP.

[triffid]

Thank you both. Yes Oregon Sugar Pod and Oregon Giant are two different varieties, with the latter being a descendant of the former. To make matters more confusing, Oregon Sugar Pod is the progenitor of Oregon Sugar Pod II - and I'm not entirely sure which one is marketed in Europe, as sometimes names change on this side of the pond. Galina, as far as I know, both Giant and Sugar Pod have white flowers. My packet of Sugar Pod has round seeds with a little dimpling, cream testa and green cotyledons. I believe Oregon Giant has wrinkled seeds.
Interestingly, Victory Seeds has the pedigree of Oregon Giant as an image here https://www.victoryseeds.com/pea_oregon-giant.html

[Jang]

I think I was having a strangely absent moment in thinking the two varieties might be the same - although clearly related as you've both pointed out - and forgetting that I know Oregon Sugar pod very well.

I've grown OSP for years and I'm fairly confident that it has white flowers too.

[Galina]

That does not tally with what I have been growing. I knew I had them confused, but maybe not with each other? Too bad. Thank you for the Victory Seed reference. I remember them as being taller too. My Oregon Giant was from a seed swap, Oregon Sugar pod from Pennard Seeds. Will go and check the seeds tomorrow.

[Galina]

I am afraid the plot thickens and I cannot trace what is what anymore. I went back to my oldest seeds from 2013 and 2014 and both varieties have sand coloured seeds. Oregon Giant a tad larger round with some dimpling, certainly not wrinkled, Oregon Sugar pod marginally greener beige coloured, a little smaller and dimples. So far so good. I have listed Oregon Giant as tall pea and Oregon Sugar Pod as 90cm in my database. That is not correct, both should be 90cm, but peas can vary in height. It is definitely OSP and not OSP II in the database. The OSP II seems very elusive.

A database comment from growing OSP in 2015 mentions two types - a narrower mangetout and a wider mangetout in the Oregon Sugar Pod batch. Did I in that year confuse both and sowed them together accidentally, labelling just Oregon? I kept them separate though. In 2017 the bigger podded one has beige seeds, the other one has mid brown seeds, narrower pods and is purple flowering. I think I have to go back through the old gardening books and check any adjacent peas, because that is where a mistake has definitely crept in. The 2017 seeds were due to be renewed in 21, but these few very old seeds I will plant right now. They may be the last ones without a mistake. Or not. The 2017 seeds are definitely suspect.

Oregon Sugar pod is easy enough to buy, so the question is whether it is different and if so how. I am sorry about the confusion and I will report back but I cannot be certain that all is well even with those old seeds. If all other markers are right for OG (providing these old seeds will still germinate) and the pods are indeed 4 and a half inches by one inch as described, then I will gladly offer some later in the year with some more certainty. Looking at the various photos of the pods shows any number of things, even a snap pod, so not very helpful.

[triffid]

I do wonder if the OSP marketed in Europe is in fact OSP II with a name change. Only because OSP II seems to be the only one currently marketed in the USA.

This topic has really opened a can of worms! Thanks for looking through your stocks Galina. The 'brown-seeded narrow-podded purple-flowered' is a mystery. I'll see if I can get OG from one of a couple EU vendors I've found, if they're still shipping. For reference, this company has a few good clear pics of OG, including seeds, and they would appear consistent with descriptions https://deaflora.de/Shop/Erbsen/Neu-...t--Samen-.html

[Galina]

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/planttrials/T...nap%202009.pdf

This is the 2009 AGM report that gives Oregon Giant the AGM and takes it away from Oregon Sugar Pod due to misshapen pods and bad maintenance by only one provider and it also states that newer cultivars are available. Oregon Giant is listed as 1.60m tall! Unwins are listed as providers of Oregon Giant. They may still have some seeds, if asked. Just checked Unwins are no more, sold to Marshall.

As an aside, this is also the report that took the AGM away from Sugar Lord, the pea that a member over at A4A took great pains to resurrect successfully from 13 year old seeds - because of tall plants, late cropping and very small pods? I would say on the contrary Sugar Lord has very large pods!

[Jang]

Some general reflections on OSP:

It’s interesting that Oregon SP is still so widely available after having been judged to be misshapen and inferior over ten years ago. And also surprising that Oregon Giant is so difficult to source in UK.

I would have said it’s a good metre tall in my experience.

In 2019 I had seeds from Premier Direct. It had quite a lot of off-types (misshapen?). I contacted the supplier and sent photos but was palmed off with an unsatisfactory response. I then ordered seed from Seekay which I have growing now in my polytunnel. The seeds look quite different.
Premier with off types on left and newer Seekay batch on right.

RHS suggest there’s only one main supplier. I assume that means both companies probably get their seed from the same supplier?

[Jang]

Yes, RHS descriptions of the disease preventions steps etc which they take for their trials certainly bear no resemblance to my style of growing either!

[triffid]

The ones on the right look like my batch of OSP, >90% green cotyledons, also sourced from Premier Seeds Direct.

[Jang]

It was the ones from Premier Direct (on the left of my photo) which I thought were suspect.

I should add that I've had a lot of seed from them and this is the only time I've not been happy.

[triffid]

Thanks for the input, the Oregon pea series has led me down a rabbit hole I was not expecting.
Only found a couple of vendors in Europe with OG, and I've just order a packet from this Czech company https://permaseminka.cz/hrach/150-oregon-giant.html
They have a good range of open-pollinated seed and even some rare crosses like St. Victor x Oerprei perennial leek which I've been trying to track down for ages... but I have enough to plant this spring... next year

[Jang]

For translating, do you mean that you can right click while still on the website page? I seem only to be able to copy and paste into Google Translate which is OK but somewhat long-winded..

[Galina]

Without being computer savvy or technical, but maybe Windows Ten is different to earlier versions. I have two ways of translating. When first going onto a foreign language site there is a 'translate page' that pops up top right which I can use, but for seed companies this is less useful because you want to see the actual names of varieties and not how these are translated into English. Yes when on the page, I can right click on the page and the menu that pops up includes the option to translate.

[Jang]

I’m usually on iPad or MacBook but thanks to gathering from you that there must be a way, I’ve found I can do it on Google Chrome on iPad. Much simpler - and for seed sites going backwards and forwards between the two languages tends to make most things clear enough. Relief! Thanks.

[Jang]

I’ve just been rereading Carol Deppe’s praise of Oregon Giant in The Tao of Vegetable Gardening.

Interestingly she divides peas into four types rather than the three I’d appreciated, which were simply mangetout (snow), sugar snap and shelled

She has the four types: mangetout (snow) - flat podded and not sweet at all; sugar peas - flat but sweet and eaten until the peas begin to swell; snap peas - round in cross section and harvested when the peas are fully formed, and shelled. It’s the first category (of mangetout) that she has subdivided in a way which I haven’t previously considered.

But she then goes on to say that Oregon Giant has thick pods like snap peas and can be eaten right till the peas are fully formed. And yet it has flat pods, so she thinks there should be yet another category which she calls flat snaps.

I just found this interesting and think it will focus my observation of the shades of difference between different varieties.

[triffid]

It is interesting, and just based on photos I've seen, the pods of OG don't look all that different in structure to the old giant mangetout varieties - like Bijou and Carouby.
Then you have small flat podded mangetout which Deppe describes as not sweet - 'Kent Blue' would fit this description except I've found it pleasantly sweet. I think individual variety plays a major role in flavour and sweetness beyond what broad classifications can predict. That said, I do agree that 'Golden Sweet' isn't particularly sweet, and a little bitter, but that's my personal taste.

[Jang]

Oregon Sugar Pod is fairly giant too I think. Looking forward to comparing OG with OSG and also, as you suggest, Carouby and Bijou. Much observing and photographing in prospect. 😊🤞

[Galina]

This is a book that should go on my birthday list, very interesting Jang.

The only non sweet mangetout I know is Biskopens Graaert. Unless you call Golden Sweet non sweet. All other non sweet peas have fibrous pods. Therefore not mangetout peas.

As OG has been bred from Sugar Snap and Oregon Sugar Pod as Triffid showed us it might indeed have thicker pods, but not snap pods by my definition, looking at the very clear picture on the Czech site. There is something which I call an inflated pod for want of knowing the proper term and I can see signs of that on the Czech photos. Is that what she means? The Kapuler snap peas are thick walled and tight fitting around the seeds but you can't see the seeds.

I didn't think OG was a snap pea when I grew it or I would have made a comment of that in my database. I am not that unobservant. However mine came from a swap and not bought from a seed company. On the Czech photo you can clearly see the seeds. It looks like a mangetout, not a snap.

If I wanted to subdivide mangetouts, I would simply do it by size. There are clearly normal mangetouts and giant mangetouts. The 2 maximum 3 inch type and the 5-7 inch wide podded mangetouts which are my personal favourites.

[Jang]

'The only non sweet mangetout I know is Biskopens Graaert. Unless you call Golden Sweet non sweet'
Carol Deppe is rather dismissive of Golden Sweet. She writes, " Golden Sweet, often listed as a yellow snow or sugar pod type, isn't. It is a soup pea to which many people apply wishful thinking ...You can eat the pods if you pick them when they are only an inch or two long as you can with other soup peas".
This seems rather harsh. She goes on to recommend Opal Creek instead.

I think her extra category of 'flat snaps' is probably indeed the inflated pods you describe. My memory of Golden Sweet is that it has far thinner pods than Oregon Sugar Pod, for example, so to that extent, OSG could perhaps be described as having thicker pods even though flat, and OG perhaps thicker still - but I'm only guessing from its parentage.

Could your OG have fitted into this in-between category of flat snaps?

[Galina]

We will have to see how thick podded they are.

[Galina]

Actually my Czech ones are thicker podded than most mangetout. And they are quite large but nothing like the large mangetouts I normally grow. However some are wide (nearly as wide as Bijou) and some are 50 percent narrower. So I guess a bit of selection on seedsaving should be exercised in favour of the wider ones. At a push I can understand Carol Deppe's description and it is different from other mangetouts. They are certainly very prone to mildew unfortunately.

[triffid]

Jang it depends on your browser. I use Firefox which doesn't auto-translate unless you use an add-on. But in this instance for Permaseminka shopping I just loaded it in Google Chrome and it auto-translated.

Regarding payment I transferred via my banking app, no address required.

But from the terms & conditions https://permaseminka.cz/content/3-obchodni-podminky here is the registered office:

of businessman Mark Kvapil
with its registered office at Pňovice 55, 78401, Czech Republic
id number: 88356906
Steuernummer: CZ8303165354
registered in the Trade Register kept at the Municipality of Olomouc for the sale of goods through an on-line shop located at www.permaseminka.cz.

[Jang]

Thank you both - Galina sent me the address etc by pm too. In fact I emailed the proprietor yesterday evening and he replied quite early this morning. Quite impressive. It seems to be a company that it’s a pleasure to deal with.

I usually use Safari but had tried Google Chrome to see if translation was offered. I didn’t find it, but will try again now I know it’s definitely accessible there somehow.

[triffid]

Great, hope everything goes well with your order.

[Hector1]

In case this is useful for anyone
http://www.reimerseeds.com/oregon-gi...c-64f17ea636ff

[Jang]

Thanks for the above link, Hector1. It looks interesting for another time.

I received notification that Oregon Giant was despatched by the very efficient Czech company on 8 April but it hasn’t arrived yet. I guess the post isn’t quite normal although I’ve received one or two other things from mainland Europe quite quickly.

Have you received your OG yet, triffid?

[Jang]

No nothing.
I received a book from US today which was despatched on 14 May, so I would hope the seeds won't be too much longer.

[triffid]

They've arrived!

[Jang]

Brilliant. Mine not. ☹️☹️

[triffid]

Planted the better half for seed, half for the table. A few weren't wrinkled so worth inspecting the lot when they arrive. I would always keep reserve seed in case of mishaps but I'm gambling in this one instance. The hope is that they'll yield seed in time for sharing and planting a late crop for autumn harvest.

[triffid]

It doesn't make much sense to me how two shipments from the same address, on the same day, to the same country, have been so thoroughly separated.. but here we are. Must be very frustrating. But Galina saves the day Best of luck with your crop, too. Can't wait to try these.

[Jang]

At last! The Czech order of Oregon Giant has just dropped through my letter-box.

Now to sow!

[triffid]

Hurrah!

[Jang]

How have you got on with Oregon Giant, Triffid and Galina if growing?

Mine are producing quite plentifully. They are indeed 90cm and probably shorter than the OSP that I’ve grown, though my most recent memory of OSP is in the polytunnel where peas tend to grow taller.

I’m not convinced that the pods are particularly giant - or larger or more succulent than OSP. They are certainly less giant than Bijou though probably quite a lot more prolific.

Next season I might grow OG and OSP side by side to compare more carefully, and for taste too.